Therapy?

Hi,

No, you're fine. This is (or has become) the A.I. rant thread...

No, this is the A&S rant thread, which I'm starting to try and not have A&S posts all over the place

A few points to start off.

The Split People often ask here about what this mysterious split with AI is and why its so significant. So some history; once upon a time David Moore was president of the IAS, there were some disagreements and now we have A&S/AI. However I wasnt around for this split, most of the people here wernt, of those that were I doubt many care about it any more. Noone here ever complains about the injustices of the split. And it wouldnt be the first split from the IAS , the IAA was once the northern section of the IAS for example and relations between the IAA and IAS seem fine. If the societies in this country were so cliquey and splintery the IFAS would never have gotten started. So the reality is that while there was a split it plays no part in most peoples attitude to A&S, and in fact at times I wonder if the split is played up by A&S to try and make the rest of us look like whingers! The split from the IAS does not matter! If you really want a history lesson, ask around at a star party.

Only Begrudgers dont like A&S Occasionally I've heard it mentioned that some people dont like A&S because they managed to make a living out of their hobby. Thats rubbish. People who have problems with A&S do not have similar issues with the owners of North Down telescopes or Andromeda optics for example. In fact if A&S were to make changes to the way they do business and their attitudes I expect they would have many more customers from here. A&S are perfectly entitled to trade as they see fit, others are also entitled to point out competitive prices and advise people not to buy from A&S or of course open a shop themselves! The international trading policy of telescope makers is another debate entirley!

So now that I've dispelled a couple of myths why do some people really not like A&S? Heres a few of my thoughts.

. Prices. While many people here will know about telescope prices and could probably argue a sensible price from them, a parent wanting to buy a telescope for their child, knowing little about the hobby, will only be told about the scopes that A&S sell, and will likley pay twice the price they would have from the UK or other dealers here. Thats just not fair. This is often the first complaint I hear from (ex) A&S customers.

. Disctinction between club and company. Suppose AI was a club, where the members had even some say in its direction, had accounts available to members, and the relationship between the for profit company and the club was made clear, would people have a problem? I dont think so. The situation is that A&S is a company and the relationship to AI is not clear. When you join the club, does the money just go to the for profit club? what about 1550 phone money? What about donations at telescope nights?

. Empowerment of members. AI is mainly David Moore. There is probably a membership secretary, treasurer etc. but these posts are all appointed by David. The club membership has no say at all in this process. In some cases this can work, the planetary society being one, however there the accounts are open, the committee is accountable and the membership can have a say in the direction at least of the club. While having elections for all positions would I believe be best for the club, the real point is that members appear to have no say whatsoever in the running of the club. In fact the opposite can happen, I had started a mailing list for AI members to discuss astronomy and was promptly asked to removed it.

. Go it alone. An unfortunate charecteristic of A&S is that they do not even acknowledge other clubs or organisations. Not putting a like up to ILPAC on their website or not mentioning te vt-2004 program for example. They are perfectly entitled to do this, I just dont thinks its best for the members or the hobby.

I have raised these points with David Moore in the past in email discussion and he has defended A&S, prices are acceptable given their costs, appointing a committee is as valid an approach as electing one, and that they see themselves as the national club with massivly superior membership to anyone else.

In the end I stopped my subscription to A&S and invested in Sky and Telescope instead. I found out about the IAS and then the IFAS and have found an open and educational environment that I had not found with A&S, and crucially an environment where the opinions and advice I recieve, and the things I choose to get involved with are not decided by someone else.

IFAS is not anti A&S as some would have you believe, there are no meetings in smoke filled rooms plotting the downfall of A&S! IFAS and the clubs which comprise it or are loosely affiliated with it offer you choice. Choose Astronomy

Cheers,
~Al

disclaimer: I've checked this and there is nothing libellous. I have stated my opinions and in places reflected what I percieve to be the position of A&S so I dont think there is need for moderation or threats of legal action If something is factually incorrect please post a corrected version, thats how these internet forum things work! In addition in the board archives I think you will find some forwarded emails from A&S which better outline their position on some matters, for specific queries relating to A&S please mail info@astronomy.ie! I probably won't bother even reading this thread again - lifes too short!

p.s. can you tell I'm sitting up in case any aurora alerts come in?

p.p.s I referred to astronomy as a hobby in some places. Apologies to the students and professionals to whom this is also a profession!

IFAS is not anti A&S as some would have you believe, there are no meetings in smoke filled rooms plotting the downfall of A&S!

That's 'cos of the smoking ban!

I originally thought this thread was about that great Northern Irish band of the 90's. Nevermind! Seriously though well done to Albert for making some very clear and cogent points about what the problem with Astronomy & Space Limited is. That's a particularly valid point about the playing-up of the split as a means to spread and continue distrust between two groups. In all I think that David Moore and A&S ltd are bad for the hobby. I've made the point before about my personal experience and how I discovered that the Whirlpool Star Party was taking place only a few miles from me through a British magazine and not through the national astronomy magazine that I was a subscriber to. I'm sure there are plenty of A I members who would have loved to hear Steve O'Meara, David Levy, John Dobson and others but didn't get the opportunity through the insularity of A I/ A&S ltd. That's a disservice and highlights that the true purpose behind David Moore's chairmanship of both entities is to profit. Compare the line-up at WSP to that of this year's Astro-Expo - an ESA astronaut, "Isaac Newton" and a student being supervised by Hawking. Ooooohh! The fact that SDAS were rejected last year and ILPAC (and by default the International Dark-Sky Association) were ignored this year should show people what the issues are here. If you want your hobby to thrive, get involved with an IFAS group (or make your own - Laois Astronomy Club anyone?), if you want things to stagnate ...

Therapy, what ever happened to them ??

As for AI, its the selfserving exploitation attude that people do not like.
We all understand that a company need to make a profit, but there is a limit .
I was never in AI or in IAS, so the full story illudes me also

Therapy, what ever happened to them ??

Still going apparently www.therapyquestionmark.co.uk/?view=homepage

happened to hear screamager yesterday and yes thats where the topic title came from! (no better logic than that)

Cheers,
~Al

I must go through the CD collection and get that one out, its been a long time.....

Ah, back in the day when Irish music wasn't crap mimers! Nostalgia, wha?