Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

without beating about the bush, the "other one" is Astronomy Ireland and I guess them not being part of IFAS is the tricky business of whether it's a club or a business.

Without wanting to start a war (I've been banned from one astronomy group already today!) I just got this from David Moore:
--
A&S Ltd is a huge sponsor for AI.
Of course, the M.D. of A&S Ltd is the Chairman of AI so it's difficult to
see where one ends and the other begins sometimes, even for me.
A&S is a completely commercial operation and is run by professionals.
AI is a non-profit organisation run by volunteers and one part-time staff
Administrator.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
--
He is off on holidays soon, but does want to reply to me about joining the IFAS when he returns.

Cheers,
~Al

OK, that is an interesting reply. So at the moment it just happens that the chairperson of AI is the MD of A&S limited. The question is, does A&S limited fund AI? Is it written in the AI constitution somewhere that the AI Chairman must be the MD of A&S? And what does their constitution say about elections for the positions on the committee of AI?

If the AI constitution allows for free an open elections of it's officer board then I don't see any reason that AI should not be permitted to join IFAS.

*Ducks for cover*

Also, what board did you get kicked out of?

Bart B.,
IFAS Webmaster.

bart,
we are already warming up the tar and feathers for you . i will choose my words so that i will not start another flame war here . in principle it would be a good idea to invite them but i doubt that he would join us. i think he would rather we did not exist. i have never seen a constitution of AI mentioned anywhere even when they initially bombarded me during their split with the IAS. there is no mention of it on their website either. there is also no mention of A&S limited being either a seperate body or a sponser on their site. ditto for their shop. if i were a casual observer i would assume they were all the one and the same. i would be wary of any organisation unwilling to publish their constitution particularly when it is a club. when the president of the organisation is the same since it's inception is the same i would doubt it exists or at least allows for change of management but i'm sure that someone will correct me on this point since i have never darkened their door.
the other thing i would be wary of would be that it may become a case of ifas sponsered by AI. to put this way outside the ifas member clubs few people never have heard of the member clubs let alone ifas. there is nothing to stop him indirectly implying this was something he brought about. he is the public face of astronomy in this country such as it has one.
he is the only face people know and i am constantly asked if i am a member of his club if i mention astronomy as a hobby but that is a cross we all bear. although he may have alot of resources to help ifas i would be wary of the price we would pay. this group has done good work amongst the clubs. we talk to each other more, this website and arcturus to mention just a few things. i woudl think that we would be better off promoting ifas as the umberalla organisation or the face of it member clubs and then giving people the option to join which ever club is nearest to them. if we guide them to people in their area and they stay well then that club and ifas will be stronger. unless we are very careful with this issue it either cause alot of friction in ifas or we could be absorbed by them and that is a worse prospect.
sorry for the rather long post but to sum up we could:-
1) make and offer to them that the can join so long as they fit the consitution of ifas and agree to be bound by the rules.
2) promote ifas better and give a proper alternative to AI. maybe if their members knew we existed they would want their organisation to join.
Stephen.

Stephen, You rais some interesting points there but you seem to be making up their minds for them!

IFAS and AI are not comparable organisations in any way. IFAS is an umbrella group for other clubs, NOT a club in its own right. There are no members of IFAS, just members of member clubs. That is why IFAS never should be "the alternative AI".

The IFAS constitution is set up in such a way that it is not possible for any one club to take over. Regardless of how big any club is, it still only gets two seats on the IFAS board. Within IFAS all clubs are equal.

IFAS needs to do more PR to make it clear to people that we are here that much is true, but it is not a case of us versus them and should not ever be let become that. We are all in this because we love astronomy, it would be stupid to let politics spoil that.

I hate to see the kind of rift develop that we now see in Irish Amateur astronomy, it is not in the slightest bit helpful. I feel we should make every attempt to remove this rift by doing our part and extending the hand of freinship to AI. Simply put, we inform them of who we are what we do and the conditions for membership, if AI want to join and meet the conditions they should be welcome to join us if not, then they can't.

You (and many others) believe (and you may well be right) that AI will not meet the requirements of the IFAS constitution, and even if they did that they would not be interested, if that is the case then so be it, but I feel we should offer!

Having said all that, I would be completely against any sort of negotiation of the IFAS constitution, IMHO it should not be changed to make exceptions for any club.

Many people seem to think that AI are some big evil group but the simple fact is that if it was not for AI I would not be involved in astronomy. I am a member of AI and have been for nearly 10 years and in fact I just renewed my membership last week! I am also helped founding Astro2 in NUIM, which joined IFAS two years ago. I don't see any reason that people cannot be a member of AI as well as a member of their local club. No local club can rival A&S magazine and at the moment even Arcturus doesn't come close. I have never once attended an AI meeting and I have hardly missed a singel Astro2 meeting but I still think my membership of AI is money well spent because of A&S.

Anyhow, that is my two cent (well closer to two euro but hey!).

Bart Busschots,
IFAS Webmaster.

I'm currently a member of AI and have been on and off (depending on when I get pissed off with them!) for just over 10 years.

It's in my capacity as a member of AI that I've suggested they think about joining, rather than being someone from the IFAS inviting them too. I've no position in the IFAS, and advised them to mail David Bell with any queries. I have the mail I sent them in work which I can forward if anyones that intersted.

There are dangers in them joining, however I think the constitution is strong enough to ensure they cant take over. This is a big concern I had with the constitution of ILPAC also, that no one group should be able to monopolise it, though the IDA rules also bar anyone from profiting from the organisation. but thats off topic!

I got banned from the boards.ie board for breaking the rules about not talking about any particular club etc. etc. specifically I asked the astronomy.ie webmaster the following:
----
can you get rid of the following crap from the astronomy . ie website? :
"Everyone in Ireland buys Celestron, and they all buy them from Astronomy Ireland."
Two lies in the one sentence
And you wonder why A&S Ltd. pisses so many people off...
----

In fairness I probably should have asked him in a personal message or something, but it pissed me off. I've taken it up with AI now, since the webmaster just puts up what hes told.

Ah well!

Cheers,
~Al

bart,
only playing devils advocate . i am glad that people are going to make the offer for them to join. i am not worried really about him bending the constitution rather them presenting ifas as something he dreamt up. as they say image is everything, if people have never heard of us beforehand. i don't
think that ia are some evil group but some of the things they do and say are simply put not helpfiul to everyone. i know that all the politics is not nice but frankly if there is enough people involved in any group there is going to be some involved it is human nature. i think you should try and talk to them all i am saying is we need to be careful.
stephen.

p.s. i see the friends of AI lynch mob coming over the the hill better run !!
p.p.s. only joking !!!.

Hello Bart,
If you're in AI just for A&S, you really need to get your hands on Sky&Telescope (presuming you dont already get it) or Astronomy magazine.