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QHY9 camera?

  • DaveGrennan
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13 years 11 months ago #87735 by DaveGrennan
Replied by DaveGrennan on topic Re:QHY9 camera?
Michael, I've been considering this very topic and one thing that strikes me with multi-megapixel small pixel sized cameras is that of course they can be binned to suit the longer focal lengths and also making the camera more sensitive. Of course the reverse isnt true so if you go for a camera to suit your 16" its no good on your refractor. That said, I really worry about the sensitivity of some of these cameras around today. Even with miclolensing, this camera only advertises a PEAK QE of 56%.

Also as I know science is an important part of it for you, the anti blooming gate means photometry is pretty much out of the question (maybe Dave Mc will correct me). It certainly hurts the sensitivity and could knock as much as a whole magnitude off your limit over a particular exposure length.

To go back to the first point. My setup involves a C14 and an optec reducer. In practice the reducer gives me a f/l of 2125 f/d=6 (from f/11) Take the KAF1603ME (in an ST8) or the KAF0402 (in an ST402) 9uM pixels. Thats 0.87"/pix. Way too oversampled. In practice that really means bloated stars. However bin it 2x2 and that 1.75"/pix. Much closer to the 2" - 2.5" seeing which is typical for me. Peak QE is 85%.

Michael remember for minor planet observing most of the interesting stuff is in the mag 19-20 range and sometimes even fainter. Something with 56% peak QE will just not cut it up there. I experimented with my old atik 16hr with peak qe @ 65% and that really wasnt up to it. These cameras are great for taking nice pics with an 80mm refractor, they are not for big SCTs.

Of course dont forget about field curvature with physically big chips, that gonna be an issue too.

If its science you want I just dont see the interleaved CCD's cutting it. Only the full frame sensors seem to offer the appropriate sensitivity. However this is one point I'd love to be proved wrong on!

Regards and Clear Skies,

Dave.
J41 - Raheny Observatory.
www.webtreatz.com
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13 years 11 months ago #87736 by dmcdona
Replied by dmcdona on topic Re:QHY9 camera?
I'm no expert, but the main decision for anyone who wants to image is to choose the best CCD chip to suit their needs. Note that this decision is *independent* of any of the camera manufacturers or the "body" that the chip will go into.

The chip choice will depend on what imaging you want to do and even though there has been a profusion of new (and larger) chips in recent years, I'm pretty sure that most people will need to compromise on at least one of their purchasing decisions.

I terms of the chip then, the key parameters to decide on would be pixel size, ABG or NABG, mono/colour, QE and the propensity for the chip to "suffer" from RBI (residual bulk image).

Of course, the weight you put on these parameters will depend on your imaging requirements.

For pleasure imaging, you'll probably want an ABG (anti-blooming gate) colour CCD that gives you a well sampled image (related to pixel size and your imaging train optical characteristics). But even within that, if you're imaging planets, you can push the image scale a lot. For deep sky imaging, you don't want to oversample too much.

For astrometry, image scale is really important so matching the pixel size to your optics (and typical sky conditions in FWHM units)is important. However, you can throw in a focal reducer to help out if necessary.

If you want to do photometry, then you will certainly need a NABG chip and you must limit the amount of "glass" in the optical train - focal reducers, non-essential filters etc. RBI is really important (or rather, lack of it) and you want as high a QE as possible. Microlensed and colour CCD's are pretty much out.

As I say, I'm no expert and there are a good few people out there who know more about this than I do. All I can recommend is you decide what you want to achieve with your setup (pleasure or science) and then make your CCD decisions based on that.

One final point, even if you choose pleasure imaging, you can still do some science. Its not completely ruled out but choices on what science you *can* do will be limited. For example, photometry of anything other than large amplitude objects is out. You won't be constructing a curve for an exoplanet... But astrometry and some photomeetry projects would be do-able.

Equally, if you concentrate on science, you can still take pleasure images. And typically good ones at that.

It seems to me that using a pleasure imaging setup for science is limited, whereas the journey from science to pleasure imaging is much easier. The fly in the ointment is cost. A science setup would usually be significantly more expensive.

A bit long winded, but hope it helps.

More on image scale:

www.stanmooreastro.com/pixel_size.htm

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  • DaveGrennan
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13 years 11 months ago #87738 by DaveGrennan
Replied by DaveGrennan on topic Re:QHY9 camera?
dmcdona wrote:

Microlensed and colour CCD's are pretty much out.


Interesting stuff Dave. I never knew that Microlensed CCDS were bad for photometry. Why is this?

D.

Regards and Clear Skies,

Dave.
J41 - Raheny Observatory.
www.webtreatz.com
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13 years 11 months ago #87742 by dmcdona
Replied by dmcdona on topic Re:QHY9 camera?
Sorry, should have left it just as "colour". I'm not sure if any mono CCDS using microlensing exist though. As far as I know, all microlensed CCD's are colour CCD's...

That said, a microlens is another "item" for light to pass through. This certainly has an effect on QE. The mono version of a chip (if there is one) invariably has a better QE.

With photometry, you want as clean an optical path as possible. This can make a big difference in the mag differences your system can discriminate. If you working to millimag levels, you need all the help you can get.

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  • DaveGrennan
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13 years 11 months ago #87745 by DaveGrennan
Replied by DaveGrennan on topic Re:QHY9 camera?

dmcdona wrote: Sorry, should have left it just as "colour". I'm not sure if any mono CCDS using microlensing exist though. As far as I know, all microlensed CCD's are colour CCD's...

That said, a microlens is another "item" for light to pass through. This certainly has an effect on QE. The mono version of a chip (if there is one) invariably has a better QE.


Dave,

As far as I know, ONLY mono chips are microlensed. Microlensing places a little lens over each pixel in the shape of a little dome. The microlenses focus light into each pixel which would otherwise fall on the edge of the pixel and be lost. Microlensing actually increases the effective QE of a camera by up to 20% in some cases. A good example of a microlensed CCD is the KAF1603ME which is found in a few cameras most notably the SBIG ST8. This is what gives this chip its very high QE (Peak 85%)

Regards and Clear Skies,

Dave.
J41 - Raheny Observatory.
www.webtreatz.com
Equipment List here

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  • michaeloconnell
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13 years 11 months ago #87754 by michaeloconnell
Replied by michaeloconnell on topic Re: QHY9 camera?
The idea of the QHY9 would be to act as a second camera.
I plan to use the ST8XME on the 16" and so it's just a question of what camera to use for the "pretty pictures" stuff on the refractors.

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