MAJOR update to the boards

I'm more than happy to help- in fact I offered already.
Having said that- no point in applying a skin to the boards until we have an idea what the new skin for the entire site looks like. Just to keep it consistent.

Dave P

My thinking exactly

I'll take help from anyone but the thing is in order for a skin to be easily appiled to an entirly dynamic site like this one it needs to meet certain criteria:
1) It must has as simple as possible a markup
2) The markup must be XHTML 1.0 strickt (and with all styling in an external style sheet)

The only way to get a skin like that is to hand-code it and I have a feeling there are very few people out there with the skillz to do that.

Dave has offered to give me a hand finalizing the look of the new boards and I'm most certainly going to take him up on that. I'm going ot do a "version 0" that has all the bits in the right places and then I'm going ot work on getting that to look as well as possible (and that's where Dave's skills will be vital).

If there are any other users out there with the skills I'm looking for and some time to spare please give me a shout!

Bart.

Hi Bart,

Be careful creating strict css/xml based sites- they can have one major drawback- they don't look great. It's important to ask yourself what the benefit of CSS/XML is- seperating the presentation layer from the content makes sense for sites that really are dynamic and purely information based- like a news site- but a lot of the pages wont change so often for the IFAS site.

I don't want to engage in a CSS vs. tables debate, I'm just asking you to remember the marketing value of the site and the users experience Rather than delve straight into the code, take some time in GIMP/Photoshop to work up a mockup of how it will look, then try to bend the technology to fit your design- not the other way around. This generally results in a compromise of technology and design. Form and function.

Just some advice,

Cheers,
Dave P

Hi Bart,

Be careful creating strict css/xml based sites- they can have one major drawback- they don't look great. It's important to ask yourself what the benefit of CSS/XML is- seperating the presentation layer from the content makes sense for sites that really are dynamic and purely information based- like a news site- but a lot of the pages wont change so often for the IFAS site.

I'm sorry but you are compeltely wrong! Have a look at this:
www.csszengarden.com/

Now picka few different designs and be amazed. Here is one of my favourites: www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/179/179.css&page=1

I don't want to engage in a CSS vs. tables debate, I'm just asking you to remember the marketing value of the site and the users experience Rather than delve straight into the code, take some time in GIMP/Photoshop to work up a mockup of how it will look, then try to bend the technology to fit your design- not the other way around. This generally results in a compromise of technology and design. Form and function.

Just some advice,

Cheers,
Dave P

Dave, that is EXACLTY what I am doing! When it comes to the web I know what I'm talking about. I make my living from this stuff and I lectured it for three years at University level. I am familiar with web technologies right form the very lowest level of being able to speak raw HTTP right up to advanced Model View Controller architectures like Java Struts.

I know you're trying to be helpful but no matter how hard I try to read your post differently, it comes across as being exceptionally patronising and as if you think I'm an amateur.

The HTML for this site needs to be simplistic because this site is entirely dynamically generated, incorporting complex table based layouts into a site like this is horrendously painfull. I want to do this right this time so I don't have to do it again for many years so I can work on more featurs for the site with the greatest of ease. The reason there is so little new stuff appearing on the site is that the current skin is exceptionally difficult to work with (as well as not looking great), that's what the new skin has to achieve and that's what's driving my design constraints.

Bart.

Bart,

I am not attempting to be patronizing or underestimating your ability. There's good arguments for using css, no doubt about it. From a design point of view I prefer not to as I feel they are less flexible than tables. The samples you have cited are actually quite poor from a design/usability point of view.

But here's my point- I'm not blaming the CSS. It's how it was used. This is where the problem lies. Most web designers in this country either started life as a programmer or a designer. I started as a designer. There tends to be a gap in the skillset. The design is either too technology focused or too design oriented. Now as much as we may try and learn, I am not a formally trained programmer, and you are not a formally trained designer. The purpose of my post was a gentle reminder not to forget about the design element, as you have often gently reminded me to watch my code. The advice may sound simple, but it is often overlooked or ignored.

Further, I'm an Industrial Designer- "The professional service of creating and developing concepts and specifications that optimize the function, value, and appearance of products and systems for the mutual benefit of both user and manufacturer". In other words, I integrate technology and aesthetics. Besides 4 years of college I've been working in a New Media environment for 6 years now. The advice was not given thoughtlessly. It was simply friendly food for thought, from someone with a different perspective. I am sorry you feel I was patronizing you.

David

Be careful creating strict css/xml based sites- they can have one major drawback- they don't look great.

?

The samples you have cited are actually quite poor from a design/usability point of view.

www.csszengarden.com

Well since the HTML is the same for all pages, you could submit a style sheet that you think is useable. The point of the site is to encourage graphic designers to make the best use of css funnily enough.

So What is This About?

There is clearly a need for CSS to be taken seriously by graphic artists. The Zen Garden aims to excite, inspire, and encourage participation. To begin, view some of the existing designs in the list. Clicking on any one will load the style sheet into this very page. The code remains the same, the only thing that has changed is the external .css file. Yes, really.

CSS allows complete and total control over the style of a hypertext document. The only way this can be illustrated in a way that gets people excited is by demonstrating what it can truly be, once the reins are placed in the hands of those able to create beauty from structure. To date, most examples of neat tricks and hacks have been demonstrated by structurists and coders. Designers have yet to make their mark. This needs to change.

Cheers,
~Al

Hi Al,

From a designers point of view, tables are far easier to work with. WYSWYG support for CSS is quite poor- there have been dramatic improvements in the likes of Dreamweaver, but still not as flexible as tables. From an update point of view Dreamweaver templates are still easier to control than delving into css code. Personally I tend to use a hybrid of HTML dreamweaver templates and CSS. The best of both worlds- appropriate use of technology.
The tables vs. layers debate is a well worn path. A programmers approach to design is far different to a designers approach. To me it appears that there is a lot of discussion about technology, and very little about the design or the design is an afterthought.

There is clearly a need for CSS to be taken seriously by graphic artists

I take your point- you are trying to educate a designer about the value of the technology. Fair enough. But the designer is trying to educate you about the value of good design. I work as part of a multi-disciplinary team- management, marketing, design and programming. The approach we use is tried and tested. A programming only oriented approach doesnt work. There is a heavy bias of programming expertise here and not a whole lot of design. I popped my head up to remind you about the design. I'm told that this is patronizing? I think I phrased it mildly.