RTE & the Astronomy voice of Ireland

Hope you have better luck that I've had trying to get a light pollution article into it. Still no response from the editor despite many follow ups from me...Cheers,Al

:idea: Perhaps you should rewrite it under a different name.......

Gordon

I'm seriously considering asking Colm O'Brien or Dr. Darren Baskill to put their name to the next one thats sent!

Cheers,
~Al

Shane,

I must disagree with you on several points you raised. Have you asked the 7000 people who did not renew their sub why they did this? To say 'why have 7,000 people decided that they no longer wish to be associated with your organisation?' is just plain silly.

I can only talk from my experience of AI, but I *never* found it hard to get involved. In fact I always found the opposite to be true.

Again I wonder why people get so hung up about the internal workings of AI but fail to get out there and help get people interested in the hobby.

Hey Dave,

Feel free of course to disagree but I think you've picked me up wrong on this. For years we've been hearing about these huge membership numbers for Astronomy & Space Limited (trading as Astronomy Ireland) which recently peaked at a claimed 10,000 on their Radio Show. I didn't hear this show, so the last number I received from them was 8,000. As I recall there was a presentation of a prize to the 8,000th member. Now they're down to 3,000. Either 7,000 people have left in a week (unlikely) or the inflated figures were exactly that; inflated, exagerrated (or lies in other words). Hark! I hear Spacebouy charging across the hills to proclaim that there have been 10,000 members since the inception of this ... entity. I find that very hard to believe, but impossible to disprove, and so must allow it, BUT we are not told there HAVE BEEN so many members. We're told there ARE so many members. Misleading.

Gordon very quickly came to the defence of A&S Mag in comparison to S&T or Astronomy. Personal taste plays a huge part here I think. I don't like the magazine, especially the subtle hard sell which is so blatant. The only parts of the year-and-a-half's worth of the magazine I've kept have actually been Gordon's articles. The guy sure can write! Gordon also made a point about the USA with a population of 350 million. The Astronomical League has almost 18,000 members. The RASC has 4,500. Astronomy Ireland has 3,000 (or whatever). IFAS has less than 1,000 members. Remember Sesame Street? "One of these kids is not like the others" Three of these organisations offer observing programmes to their members. Three of these organisations offer publications to their members to help them become established and familiar with the night sky. Three of these organisations are democratic. Have you found the odd one out? You see, quite a few of us here do worry about the internal workings of AI, and rightly so, as we are former members. Many of us are concerned about the hobby and it's survival, indeed prosperity, and not just about what's in the sky tonight.

Speaking of the ALeague, I got a letter from them today which contained a ballot for a proposed change to their bye-laws. Isn't that nice? I get to have a say in the organisation and running of a HUGE astronomical organisation. I had no chance of having such a say in Astronomy & Space Limited (trading as Astronomy Ireland). You did. Great. Fine. I didn't, and trust me, I'm not making this up. I also have a problem with paying a "membership fee" which brings no benefits. With the AL I get a glossy quarterly magazine, a stack-load of introductory materials, a free observing guide AND discounts (heard of them?) on merchandise. With the Artane Stargazing Society I got invited to bad events where I could pay more money, indeed the same as the general public, to be talked down to by "experts".

Shane ("I've got an opinion and I'm not afraid to ram it down your throat!") Culleton.

PS - Arcturus is free because John Flannery is too nice for his own good. In the words of J Kelly Beatty; "Shame on you" to all of you out there who are able and capable and who do not submit articles. Get off your arses and write something or Arcturus will go belly-up. It has come close before and it's just the insane niceness of John F that's kept it afloat.

In time, A&S, or "Astronomy Ireland" as it was called back then, gained alot of popularity. It started printing on glossy paper and eventually went monthly. Very notable improvements to give credit where credit was due. I kept up my subscription until about a year or two ago. However, I grew more and more disappointed and disheartned to see a magazine, which had some truly excellent articles written by the likes of Gordon and Denton P. Walter, been dragged through the gutter by an editor who, IMHO, has an appaling lack of journalistic credibility. The problem as I saw it, you see, was that the editor, in most of his articles and editorials, kept trying to plug the shop and sell the reader something.

Thanks Michael - those comments are much appreciated. I must confess I only submitted a couple of observing articles this year for various reasons. Way back in 1998, A & S gave me the opportunity to develop some literary skills (although I look back in horror at some of the early articles!). So, I'm not going to get embroiled in DM's editorial policy for the magazine, although I accept you raise some valid points. It worked for both of us and the experience I got is hopefully leading to a book if I ever manage to get the damn thing finished and in to the publisher!

We've got some very knowledge astronomers in this country who are blessed with the gift to write superb articles.

Yes, there are indeed a number of knowledgeable amateur astronomers in Ireland capable of writing excellent articles comparable to those in the US magazines.

Gordon

It worked for both of us and the experience I got is hopefully leading to a book if I ever manage to get the damn thing finished and in to the publisher!

C'mon and hurry up Gordon! We're bloody itching to read it! :lol: If you get bored in the meantime how about writing an Observing Challenge Handbook for us?

John F - you may use my diary piece to keep Arcturus afloat!

Bill H - I have a DSI and have started using it. Plug and play it ain't but I'd be willing to learn with you and pass on all the mistakes I've made so far! The Meade DSI forum on Yahoo is excellent for newbies like us...

Let me know how you get on.

Dave

Gordon - thanks for your feedback - as ever, you put it very well and I'm sure you won't mind me responding likewise...

I have just re-read this whole piece - I know its long and will generate controversy. But I have to reply because you have defended what I personally feel is indefensible. And I have to stand by what I originally posted. So, here goes.

Dave Grennan said Astronomy and Space is an "excellent" magazine. I disagreed. You disagreed with my disagreement.

In my opinion, it is not an "excellent" magazine. Its a 'not bad' magazine, but 'excellent' is not a word I would use. I used the words 'poor quality' but then qualified it by adding 'for the price'. And I maintain that - here's why.

You take issue with comparing the various magazines - but I disagree. Fom a quality point of view, similar products of similar price are comparable - I can't see it any other way. If you would like to elaborate more fully, I'd be happy to listen.

I am talking about value-for-money here - so a comparison, I believe, is neither silly nor unreasonable.

And if A&S is a club magazine (like Arcturus) then it should charge 'club' prices. If you purchase the mags, here's what you'll pay at the newstands:

A&S €4.50
Astronomy €5.50 (approx)
Sky and Telescope €5.50 (approx)
Astronomy Now €5.50 (approx)

Let's dig a little deeper...

Content and volume.
A&S 40+ pages
Astronomy 100+ pages
Sky and Telescope 150+ pages
Astronomy Now 90+ pages
Arcturus 24 pages

Clearly, A&S is second bottom in the list purely on 'mass'. I would actually elaborate and say additionally, A&S has proportionally more 'white space' than any of the other mags. The font size and spacing is very generous. Now, I'm not going to count the number of words and compare. But subjectively, I believe that A&S magazine has, word-for-word, not significantly more volume than Arcturus. Certainly, it is significantly less than the US/UK mags.

Notwithstanding the volume aspect, the content itself is OK. Not 'excellent', just OK. I guess that this is subjective on my part - if A&S were to run an article on a subject that does not interest me then sure, I'd dismiss it as 'wasted'. But let's assume that the quality of the content is around the same as the other mags. The key for me here is the volume of quality content. The US/UK mags run significantly more articles in their mags than A&S - just look at the pages comparisons. They clearly run more articles. As I said in my post, I have only gotten two or three genuinely unique articles in 12 issues of A&S.

gnason said

To suggest that a 48-page full-colour printed magazine like A & S can be sold for less that two euro, displays a lack of knowledge of publishing costs. Printing costs go up for small volume runs, not the other way around and neither printers or graphic designers work for nothing.

I agree here - there are costs associated with producing a magazine - most of them presumably fixed. So, why not produce A&S electronically and remove those costs? A charge can still be recouped via the A&S subscription. Or, go for black and white. or go for non-glossy. Simply reduce the costs to a level that is equitable with the volume and quality of the magazine.

gnason said

I can’t quite believe anyone would moan in this day and age about paying just over 3 euro per month for a full colour magazine, especially when it’s a discretionary purchase!

I'm sorry if you felt that I was moaning but let's take a look at what you say. 3 Euro a month - cheap indeed. Discretionary? Only if you buy it off the stand and then its 50% dearer. I pay 40 Euro a year to be a member of Astronomy Ireland. As a service, the magazine is thrown in - that is not discretionary. As for 'moaning', if customers didn't 'moan', people selling stuff would never improve their products and would continually charge more and more for less and less....

gnason said

The fact that you renewed your membership suggests to me that you actually like the magazine more that you care to admit here!

As I said above, I originally joined A&S *not* for the magazine but to be a member of an organisation that supposedly promotes my hobby. If A&S were to promote my hobby, charge me 40 quid for doing so and THEN offered a magazine subscription for more money on top of that, I'd actually feel better about it. I could (discretionarily) choose to subscribe to the mag or not but I'd remain a member whatever.

But, here is the crux. Is A&S charging me 40 quid for a monthly magazine *OR* is A&S charging me 40 quid for being a member? If the answer is the former, then I believe that there is a fundamental misrepresentation to all A&S/AI members.

If it is the latter then I say forget the magazine altogether - I can get the US/UK ones. Or at least let A&S be honest and publish the mag for members only, electronically and cheaply and use my 40 quid to promote astronomy on my behalf as a member of A&S/AI. Come to think of it, what is my 40 quid for? I had to pay for the Star-b-que (and that was very disappointing), Astro Expo (you know my feelings on that), the mobile phone message that was spammed to my phone, where the ISS is... I ask again - What do I get for my 40 quid? As I said, if the answer is the magazine, then I believe this is a misrepresentation on behalf of all A&S/AI members.

So, why print a magazine? Because, unlike Arcturus, it can go on the stands in the newsagents and Joe Public can buy it (50 % premium) and A&S can make money. Is there a theme here that's been talked about on these boards before? I won't open that can of worms here.

Now that I've said this, I never said I didn't like the magazine. I 'moaned' about my perceived lack of value for money. Yes - if A&S charged 1.50 or 2 quid for the mag, I could accept the quality as is.

Let's get onto ads. You say four pages - hmmm. I'm looking at the Jan issue and if you count ads for A&S events (they are ads because they are events you have to pay for, and not notices of free lectures etc) then I would say 5 pages total. As an example, check out page 24. At the top is a couple of lines inviting readers to check if there any interesting phenomena - guess what, premium phone line (interestingly, there is no mention of this in the callout box - hmmmm). Page 27 - bottom right - ad for A&S newslines (at least here the unsuspecting reader is told what they'll pay...). Oh, guess what, page 31 - ANOTHER ad for the PREMIUM phone lines and a book order form. Oh my, look at all that white space!

So, January A&S - 48 pages and five of adverts. That's 10.5% adverts. Sky and Telescope (December) 168 pages, my estimate of 65 pages of ads is about 40% ads. So, you have a point there. Or do you? Let's look at it another way.

A&S - 43 pages of articles, €3.00 (50% premium in the shops...), 5 pages of ads
S&T - 103 pages of articles, €5.50., 65 pages of ads

I get one page of content from A&S for 7 cent (10.5 cent per content page for Joe Public)
I get one page of content from S&T for 5 cent

Content is CHEAPER in the US mag. I pay for content, not ads. A&S is more expensive than the US mag for members of the 'club' - Joe public fares even less well.

On the ads themselves - the ads in S&T are ads I want to read - I don't want premium phone lines rammed down my throat and making me think 'what the hell is my 40 quid for anyway?' Actually, I'm paying A&S to publish adverts that make me spend money that goes to.... A&S!!!! You gotta hand it to these guys!

So, regurgitated news items from the web then... We already see that content is 50% more expensive in A&S - and to really rub our noses in, some of that content is lifted straight out of the press releases. For the same press release, A&S charge me 50% more than the UK/US. For poor unsuspecting Joe Public, he has to pay *TWICE* as much for the same press release.

Of course, if you get Arcturus, you pay precisely, er, nothing. So A&S charges infinitely more of percentage than Arcturus...

Unique articles - yes A&S has them - of course it does. But wholly unique content? Let's see, Jan issue we have William Rowan Hamilton - a piece I thoroughly enjoyed. Human Orrery at Armagh - nice piece. Everything you always wanted to know about astronomy but were afraid to ask. Hmm. Where have I seen this before? Wasn't this a series of some antiquity? 2003 perhaps? Oh, and it starts at the letter C - don't recall the letter B being in the December issue... Will the letter D be in the February edition? Blatantly recycled from PREVIOUS editions of A&S - shameful in my opinion - we have already paid once for this, now we're paying again. Oh, and it goes on for four pages - more than 10% of the content!

Let's carry on - Observers log - ah yes that's unique. Wait a sec, who is this Dave McDonald who gets 3 column inches? Oh, that's me! Ah, I get it, write a mag, charge a membership and do you know what, we'll have the mugs that are PAYING for it write in and contribute 10% of the content! (if you include the letters page - oh, lets include the classifieds page too - that's getting us close to writing 15% of the content ourselves....).

But no, let's carry on. Deep Sky Challenge - very nice piece - I like these articles. Oooh Gordon, you naughty boy - YOU wrote that! Shame it ends with an ad for, guess what, A&S magazine!!!! At least subscription isn't by premium phone line, you can just post it in.

(Diversion - I actually like ALL of your pieces Gordon - you write extremely well and I would consider your articles the better written pieces because they are hands on and useful - and I'm not just saying this because I'm giving out - you should write for Astronomy Now in my genuine opinion)

Turn the page - oooh - lovely pictures. What? Provided by the readers? All 3 pages? Cripes, another 7% content provided by the purchasers.... Ahhh - Astro Expo - what's this? Three pages on an event that has passed? Well, two pages of photos (one a blatant advert for the A&S shop which is not counted in my figures above - oh look - call the premium phone line for details....). I wonder if this three page spread is a ploy to sell next year's event? Nah, they wouldn't.... Oh, I'm at the end of the mag. Gosh, that was a gripping 1 hour read...

Ok - let's look at lead times. Cutting edge articles appearing in A&S that are not available in the other mags. Let's see. Europe reached the moon - didn't I read this before? - oh yes, the UK mag I think. Titan revealed. No, didn't see that... oh wait, yes, I recall that from a US mag. Well ahead on up-to-date news items? Gordon - you're having a laugh. With a two month lead on the US/UK mags as you say, I would expect a lot more. A lot, lot more...

Me write an article? Well, I have written in and had stuff published. Which I paid for via my subscription...

By all means use my Dear Diary piece posted on this site - which is free to all. Use readers pieces and then charge the contributors? C'mon Gordon...

I can see the thought process here
"I know, we'll produce a mag, get the readers to contribute all the content and then charge them for it!". Hmmm.

Summary - A&S is a poor magazine. I would never describe it as excellent. It is grossly overpriced in relation to its competitors. It is a money making scheme. I am so very very genuinely sorry that I renewed my subscription this year. I really feel conned now.

And do you know what Gordon? Its you that has just opened up my eyes to it fully. Thank you.

Dave