Astronomy Irelands so-called 'fundraiser'

Dave G, what gets me is the half truths and the spin.

If AI told it like it was the chances are that I would have much less issue with them but, IMO, they don't.

Being entirely honest I view some of their advertisments as being designed to misslead and that really bugs me. I cann't stand that kind of dishonesty (which is what I consider a lot of the spin form AI to be).

I bought my telescope off AI because I geniunely belived the money was going into my club, NOT to a limmited company and all the literature issued by AI served only to bolster that false impression. I honestly feel like I was taken for a ride and that really bugs me.

I belive that there is probably nothing dodgey going on in the relationship between AI and A&S but because of the spin and the total lack of openness with the members up front I cann't help but get that nagging feeling there is something dodgey a foot. There is an aweful lot to be said for honesty and openness and I just don't feel AI are open with their members and in my personal opinion some of their promotional material actually crosses the line into disshonesty. (note, PERSONAL OPINION!).

Having said all that, I also have no doubt that David Moore and all the other guys in AI have their hearts in the right place, they want to promote astronomy in this country. I just wish they would be more open with their members. I have been a paid up member for a long time now but I really don't feel my opinions are valued at all or that my grievences are taken even remotely seriously by the PTB within AI. That IMO is a very sad and very bad thing.

Lastly and most importantly, none of this is meant to be personal. I am a member of AI and feel I have the right to express my views on n organisation that I have paid to be a member of! Dave, I genuinely look forward to reading your articles in A&S.

Clear Skies to all,

Bart B.

Lastly and most importantly, none of this is meant to be personal. I am a member of AI and feel I have the right to express my views on n organisation that I have paid to be a member of! Dave, I genuinely look forward to reading your articles in A&S.

Of course you feel you have a right to express your feelings and rightly so. I think you are right to a degree and wrong in another way . That is, Dave Moore does things in his own very distinctive way. I dont think anyone would disagree with that. I think what it boils down to is that 'Dave Moores way of doing things' doesnt sit well with some people. Others, like me, try to look beyond all of the fluff and see the goal of promoting astronomy to the masses as the best way forward. To me all of the A&S stuff (what you call the half truths and the spin) etc doesnt matter. I can see why others will be uneasy with all that stuff.

Bart I would be seriously interested in your feedback (and that of anyone else who reads it) on the Sky Diary section of A&S as and from May 05. My aim will be to produce a high quality monthly sky diary with a concentration of useful information aimed at both beginners and advanced amateurs alike. For May and June things will be pretty much 'As you were'. However from then on, I intend to make changes to make the sky diary more user friendly and useful.

I'm still contemplating about David Moore's use of someone elses article from the Astronomy Society of the Pacific (on Astronomy & Astrology), where he signed HIS name to the article (when it belonged to a Mr Franknoi), and used it to gather funds for his pocket in Dublin and a few other places in Ireland almost 2 years ago...

Who else here remembers that one?

Wow! I think I must apologise for some reason, but I didn't think my post would draw such a debate out of people! I must say, its a real eye-opener to read experiences from people who attended AI events (both here and on other boards), and comparing them to how Moore tries to sell them on his site and on the radio. He sounds like such a..... no, hold that one. can't say that here!

I can't believe the amount of anarchy this man represents in money making ventures out of astronomy. Seanie, is that true about ripping off another lecturers talk? Unbelievable. THAT kind of stuff should be circulated, and NOT in AI's favour.

Dave Grennan, are you affiliated with AI in some way? You seem to be on his defense a lot. Can Moore not come here and talk to us, or stand up for himself? I really do not mean any offence to you (or any one else, who is a member of AI here), but there are waaay too many inconsistencies and grey areas regarding AI or AandS.

I actually emailed AI 2 days ago asking what the fundraiser is for (it is their starbeque), in that I might go if it was a worthwhile charity. But I have had no response. If its to line the pockets of whoever is behind AI, then balls to it. A club is out there to help people enjoy the hobby, but it doesn't sound like their next starbeque will be enoyed by many. And then charging 2 flippin' yo-yo's to look through a bloody scope, as if they have they only ones in the country (judging by what I am supposed to make from reading their site).

Has anyone even complained publicly about them/him? I did see somewhere here about a stupid remark he made on light pollution, but sure the likes of RTE seem warped by his 'charm' that they don't take notice of anyone else.

I am more angry now than ever at A or AandS. I've never given them a penny, and I shouldnt really have to (unless its for a REAL event). All otherastronomy clubs deserve the real credit, not Moore. They are the ones making astronomy worthwhile with free observing sessions and lectures. Good on them.

Dickie.

Seanie, is that true about ripping off another lecturers talk? Unbelievable. THAT kind of stuff should be circulated, and NOT in AI's favour.

Guys a word of advice here, be very careful. You are making very specific allegations.

Dave Grennan, are you affiliated with AI in some way? You seem to be on his defense a lot. Can Moore not come here and talk to us, or stand up for himself? I really do not mean any offence to you (or any one else, who is a member of AI here), but there are waaay too many inconsistencies and grey areas regarding AI or AandS.

Derek, I already explained my affiliations in this thread. I will not do it again. Please take the trouble to read the thread. I also mentioned that all of the powers that be, companies office, revenue commissioners etc don't seem to see AI/A&S's business as having any grey areas.

I actually emailed AI 2 days ago asking what the fundraiser is for (it is their starbeque), in that I might go if it was a worthwhile charity. But I have had no response. If its to line the pockets of whoever is behind AI, then balls to it. A club is out there to help people enjoy the hobby, but it doesn't sound like their next starbeque will be enoyed by many. And then charging 2 flippin' yo-yo's to look through a bloody scope, as if they have they only ones in the country (judging by what I am supposed to make from reading their site)

Like Bart alluded to Derek, AI fundraisers tend to raise funds for AI funnily enough. I already explained about why AI has to charge for some of its events in this thread. Theres never a mention that AI holds free observing sessions whenever possible. I note that one IFAS club is charging a fiver sterling for its telescope observing session. So its ok for other clubs to charge but not for AI?

I am more angry now than ever at A or AandS. I've never given them a penny, and I shouldnt really have to (unless its for a REAL event). All otherastronomy clubs deserve the real credit, not Moore. They are the ones making astronomy worthwhile with free observing sessions and lectures. Good on them.

Yes, good on them but see above. Do you expect Mr Moore to pay the substantial running costs for say a lecture with an international speaker (who needs expenses paid) attended by 500 people (who need to be insured) in a quality venue out of his own pocket?

Something else that comes to mind that I really think dramatically muddies the water is that David Moore is both AI and A&S. He is the man who holds the reigns in both.

Why is this a problem? Other people run astronomy clubs and astronomy businesses too.

It is just a little bit of a conflict of interest though isn't it?

For example having the club chairman:

. advising people to ring a premium rate number and not mentioning where to get ISS pass times online for free, is not in the best interest of the amateur astronomer, but is in the best interest of the finances.
. saying that everyone buys celestron[1] and all buy from his shop is not in the best interest of the amateur astronomer, but is in the best interest of the company.
. allegedly discontinuing the DTG dobsonian range [2] is not in the best interest of the amateur astronomer but is in the best interest of the company. Presumably the margins on celestron kit (at the advertised prices anyway) are healthy, and I presume we won't see any advice from A&S magaznie telling people to consider dobsonians in future. Hopefully this will not happen.

In effect IMHO A&S uses AI for marketing. And this IMHO is detrimental to the integrity of AI. This imho occurs because David is the director of the company and the chair of AI, and quite possibly genuinely gets the distinction blured between which role he is in at times (marketing for the company or promoting the club). Thats not a criticism of David by the way! I think anyone in his position would have the same issues making the distinction.

I've never seen another organisation with the same director/chair operating a business on one hand and using a charity on the other to promote the business (yes yes, he promotes astronomy, but I mean from a business perspective here). Other organisations, like the IDA, forbid anyone running a lighting business from holding office, even as a section leader.

Did I put enough IMHO's in there? Right, back to work!

Cheers,
~Al

[1] Apart from the Meades in Dundalk I presume www.astronomy.ie/saturnwatchrep.html including a fellow LXD55/75er!
[2] www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=233800